Orchestral Tools (Berlin Series) там пишется.
Пардон мой французский... А надо бы)
Проблемы качественной записи ненастоящего оркестра :)
- Автор темы Vosk
- Дата начала
А это уже особенности мышления/подхода. У меня с давних аналоговых времен осталась привычка оптимизировать количество треков/каналов.
И даже первые цифровые системы накладывали довольно суровые ограничения в этом плане.
У людей же, выросших на безлимитной цифре, )) наблюдается организационная вольница: у них обычное дело держать на отдельном треке/канале ошметки, которые вполне можно консолидировать.
НМВ дело не в экономии компьютерных ресурсов, которая сегодня не столь актуальна.
Оптимизация предпочтительнее в психологическом/эргономическом плане, т.к. сознанию легче держать под контролем меньшее количество объектов.
Кроме того, НМВ выгон в аудио мобилизирует, ставя шлагбаум бесконечные доводкам, проводимым на протяжении всего процесса сведения.
Впрочем, каждое свое
Человек обычно легче добивается хорошего результата ПРИВЫЧНЫМИ средствами.Так что агитировать Воска за сведение в аудио я точно не буду.
Последнее редактирование:
вообще этим у воска занимается МИР. Но как все видят, безуспешно... Потому что сухой сигнал - неправильный) И не только с точки зрения объема.
Кстати, всегда было интересно: что будет, если писать сэмплы с приличной дистанции, но в мертвой комнате (1,5м минваты по периметру)?
золотые слова, Федор Бенедиктович. Только тут надо сделать поправку: до тех пор, пока привычные средства не отнимают у результата больше, чем непривычные. А то тогда мы получаем всяких профессоров истории КПСС)
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Да оставайся
Просто ты имел в виду импульсы, да? этим занимаются, да, но основная проблема от этого никуда не девается.А если ты имел ввиду реальные сэмплы с разных залов - дешевле записать идеальный оркестр в одном зале)
нет.
речь не про это.
не бывает, имхо. ибо идеальное - оно у каждого своё. да и материал диктует зал, не так ли?
безуспешно занимается именно мир, так точнее, имхо
вся эта поп-рок музыка не согласна будет, имхо. объём можно вполне себе придать сухому сигналу, а также можно и сухой записать в некоторой степени объёмно, стерео/ms например...
Тим, не путай НОВЫЕ и непривычные.
Я не профессор истории КПСС и не против нового, но реально работать на результат оно начинает, когда становится более-менее привычным. Согласись-ка Могу привести массу примеров, даже форумных, когда у камрадов эйфория от внедрения новых средств/приемов быстро сменяется tristia post coitus ))) - отношением к сношению после сношения, )) вплоть до полного отвержения...
https://www.discogs.com/artist/1200879-Denon-Orchestra чет только это вылазит. Хз, оно - не оно...
я не путаю) Считай это завуалированной рекламной компанией рипера как платформы для оркестровки
Только тсс... Об этом я точно не хочу говорить, ни сейчас, ни здесь.[DOUBLEPOST=1518982119][/DOUBLEPOST]
так разные залы появляются не потому что идеальное у каждого свое, а потому что по отдельности пока тащат на себе только берлинские медные духовые
Всех остальных приходится пихать по многу разных.Так вот сделать полноценный сэмпл-оркестр дешевле, чем несколько типичного современного уровня в разных залах натурально. В этом контексте и вопроса об одном "сухом" не стоит. Ведь он сухой, ему пох из какого он зала)
Музыканты, участвующие в записи, шибко довольными не будут
Я всегда всем доволен. Мне все нравится. Я эту тему не читал, не знаю почему здесь меня вспомнили. Я бываю не доволен только когда рыба не клюет. В остальном я всем доволен.
@smack, плавали, знаем) Пианисты, кстати, часто в "безэховую камеру" в акустически-граммонтых залах попадают. потому что рояль вообще играет в стороне да еще и в сторону, и звук обратно может и не вернуться. Маленькие инструменты хотя бы под боком (под ухом) скрипят...
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Помните, я пытался Вас на запись мандолины сагитировать?) Года два назад, наверное. Вот и вспомнил, как участника из нашей тусовки.
ага, только как доп-ная нагрузка, нафик не нужная.
Двойная работа.нет конечно.) Я очень гибок, и не только в смысле воркфлоу но и вапче в принципе по мозгам.) Но мне нужны убедительные доказательства для того чтобы этот воркфлоу поменять или изменить на другой.
Старина, я могу тебе дать экспорт 20-ти орк. треков, если ты сможж нарулить в них оркестровый объём, я попрошусь к тебе в ученики.
не ошмётки, аудио-каналы библ-темплейтов, кочующих из проекта в проект даже если они используются раз в год. Просто так удобно, ибо они всегда под рукой. И этим "грешу" не только я, в данный момент эти проекты-монстры с кучей "ошмётковых" каналов практически у всех сэмплерно-оркестровых писунов. Напр. у того же Junkie XL. В некоторых клинических случаях у народа и до 3000 треков в проекте открыто.) Но при наличии вены это абсолютно не критично.
дело в том. что в сознании ничего, кроме конкретного инструмента-канала держать как раз не нужно.) Достаточно знания того что он уже есть в проекте и его не надо каждый раз когда он нужен заново создавать с нуля.
Это такая своеобразная разновидность лени, в данном случае компьютерной.)а как без доводок?? Это во-первых, а во-вторых надо учитывать что клиенту понравится не всё ), и он потребует правок. Которые в случае с экспортом аудио потребуют двойную работу - правка в миди-варианте проекта, а затем ещё раз но в аудио. Двойная работа.
А заслон от правок нарабатывается интуитивным - "лучшее - враг хорошему" ) И момент когда нужно остановиться уже зависит от интуиции каждого индивида.)
ты же знаешь , это очень размытое определение, учитывая стиль нашей работы. С реверами.
вот я так и думал.) Эх, молодёжь..
Попробуйте на некоторые треки waves ps22 повесить. Можно чудеса услышать в разных вариантах положения ручек)))
Зато объём может появиться...
Не совсем понимаю, как это связано с моей цитатой... На слабо что ли типа? Ну давайте. Некий объём нарулю, если трекинг с моей точки зрения будет адекватен. Только вот потом вы наверняка скажете, что нифига не "оркестровый" он, и опровергнуть я сие вряд ли смогу... Стало быть - как минимум ещё и некий референс потребуется...
я на троллинг не реагирую. ) Даже мягкий интеллигентный.)
вот! Это и называется конструктивное мЫшление!
Если тайм найду, выложу тут реф того, чего хотелось бы накрутить в сэмплерном оркесте. (рефы были по-жизни, но теперь вот их надо найти), тот что в алаве не покажешь).Да, Саш, давай на ты а.
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But the way I set up a room on Sony, which is a nice, big stage. This
was a very large string and brass group. I don't remember the exact numbers, but
I'm going to say it was somewhere around 32 or 34 violins,16 viola, maybe 8 cellis,
maybe 8 basses, and then triple woodwinds. So that would be three flutes, three
clarinets, three bassoons, and three oboes. So that's a pretty large
gang, and those guys would all be in the room together, and the room is set up in a
pretty traditional orchestral, the way I like it, in something like this,
unless the music is written specifically to have an effect that would make me set
up the room differently, I tend to set things up in a pretty
traditional orchestral way, which is violins on the left, my left,
violins first and second, and then violas, and then on the right is
the celli. And then the basses behind the celli sort of cheated into the room a tiny
bit so that they're not hard right, which I used to do, but are a little bit
more towards the center. And then everything is spot mic-ed, but
the last thing in the world I end up using is the spot mics. I do spot mic-ing, and
obviously, the room as most of you who are familiar with orchestral recording knows,
we use a Decca Tree configuration or I use a Decca Tree configuration. So, at that
height, which on this score was somewhere between 11 and 12 feet. And then there's
the next level down, which is sort of my focus mics, which I have
at about eight feet. And I bought a special group of mics for that, it's these Mojave MA-1000s because
they have this sound that it's got a nice, exciting, electric top-end, it's very
similar to like an old Telefunken 251, but maintainable. You know, the problem
with some of the older mics, they sound fantastic when you're on a big
orchestral session like this, the last thing in the world you can afford
to do is have a mic fail. So, I tend to use stuff that has the
essence of these mics but that tends to be a little bit more modern so that we have a
little bit more reliability. I, unfortunately, came along a little bit
after the opportunity to get some of the more vintage mics was available and then
to get them maintained or rebuilt in a way that made them, you know, really up to a
modern spec. You know, because now everything is digital and
super-quiet. And so, with a mic that has a noise floor that is a little higher than
others can become a real problem. So we have that mid-height, which is a
group of mics like here, and I use these a lot. These are like all
of these. These are like my main juice mics, so if I was...
[/HIDE-POSTS]
[HIDE-POSTS=1000]
Nice sound. Kind of dry
and direct. I mean, this is what this music is. It's very
punchy, it's very drivey, it's very percussion-driven, it's not John
Williams, it's not meant to have that, you know, that gorgeous hall sound, it's meant
to be rock and roll orchestra, which I love. So the top of the room, if
you will listen just to the top of the room, and then we'll talk a little bit
about that, sounds like this. Still kind of nice and
direct, but it's got a little bit more ambiance around it. And
then my feature mics would be these guys. Let's give it a nice front-end.
But, as you see, the room is really doing so much of the work.
And then we get into the spot mic-ing. And the way I spot-mic, if you
look at your screenshot, you'll see that, on the main orchestral
pass, I'm not even using the violin mics, or at all. I'm just using just a little
bit of the violas, the celli, and in this case, usually, I use even less
than this, but there was a conversation that happened at the beginning of the
project that they might want to really go, like, direct and dry, maybe using a little
distortion on some parts. So I used some more spot mics than I
normally would. In this case, I had a spot mic, like, say, for the
celli, on each and every two players. Usually, I would have every four players,
and I would never go more than two mics. So if I had more than eight players, that
was it, I'd let the room pick up the rest. But if I play you these, all I'm doing is
really reinforcing the low-end of the room. Because I find that, especially with
stuff like this, that what gets lost the fastest is the basses and the celli. So
the basses, which are the mics I use the most for this, give me that chunky kind of
attitude. And now, in this case, because I was using so many mics, I used
two different kinds of mics, which is something I don't normally do, and I had
two rows, I had eight basses. I had two rows of four. I had a front row
of four and a back row of four. So in the front row, I used a mic that I
really love on the basses, which is the Sennheiser MKH 800. And I love that mic
because it's a really open mic with a great mid-range, but it has this really
deep low-end. And, you know, the bass players looked at me the first
time I put this up and they thought I was nuts, they wanted to see their big U47s,
or their 87s and I said, "Do me a favor. I'm going to record both
of these mics, come into the control room and listen to the two of them." And sure
enough, they got what I was saying. But in the back row, I did use the U47s
because, although they have less bass, they have a really detailed mid-range and
a bit of character and color in the sound and I thought it would be nice to have the
combination of the two. So that's what I did with that. On the
celli, I honestly don't remember. I could look it up. But again, I think
because I used double the amount... oh, I do remember, actually. I used ribbon
mics on the back, I used the Royer 121s and on the front I used, I believe, my
Neumann M149s. Then on high strings, cellis and violins, I tend to use Schoeps
CMC 5s with a cardioid capsule because I really like the mid-range detail on them.
But as you can see, they're hardly in the mix. So the overall picture...is really
room-based, but it's still got a nice, dry, direct sound to it.
[/HIDE-POSTS]
Nice sound. Kind of dry
and direct. I mean, this is what this music is. It's very
punchy, it's very drivey, it's very percussion-driven, it's not John
Williams, it's not meant to have that, you know, that gorgeous hall sound, it's meant
to be rock and roll orchestra, which I love. So the top of the room, if
you will listen just to the top of the room, and then we'll talk a little bit
about that, sounds like this. Still kind of nice and
direct, but it's got a little bit more ambiance around it. And
then my feature mics would be these guys. Let's give it a nice front-end.
But, as you see, the room is really doing so much of the work.
And then we get into the spot mic-ing. And the way I spot-mic, if you
look at your screenshot, you'll see that, on the main orchestral
pass, I'm not even using the violin mics, or at all. I'm just using just a little
bit of the violas, the celli, and in this case, usually, I use even less
than this, but there was a conversation that happened at the beginning of the
project that they might want to really go, like, direct and dry, maybe using a little
distortion on some parts. So I used some more spot mics than I
normally would. In this case, I had a spot mic, like, say, for the
celli, on each and every two players. Usually, I would have every four players,
and I would never go more than two mics. So if I had more than eight players, that
was it, I'd let the room pick up the rest. But if I play you these, all I'm doing is
really reinforcing the low-end of the room. Because I find that, especially with
stuff like this, that what gets lost the fastest is the basses and the celli. So
the basses, which are the mics I use the most for this, give me that chunky kind of
attitude. And now, in this case, because I was using so many mics, I used
two different kinds of mics, which is something I don't normally do, and I had
two rows, I had eight basses. I had two rows of four. I had a front row
of four and a back row of four. So in the front row, I used a mic that I
really love on the basses, which is the Sennheiser MKH 800. And I love that mic
because it's a really open mic with a great mid-range, but it has this really
deep low-end. And, you know, the bass players looked at me the first
time I put this up and they thought I was nuts, they wanted to see their big U47s,
or their 87s and I said, "Do me a favor. I'm going to record both
of these mics, come into the control room and listen to the two of them." And sure
enough, they got what I was saying. But in the back row, I did use the U47s
because, although they have less bass, they have a really detailed mid-range and
a bit of character and color in the sound and I thought it would be nice to have the
combination of the two. So that's what I did with that. On the
celli, I honestly don't remember. I could look it up. But again, I think
because I used double the amount... oh, I do remember, actually. I used ribbon
mics on the back, I used the Royer 121s and on the front I used, I believe, my
Neumann M149s. Then on high strings, cellis and violins, I tend to use Schoeps
CMC 5s with a cardioid capsule because I really like the mid-range detail on them.
But as you can see, they're hardly in the mix. So the overall picture...is really
room-based, but it's still got a nice, dry, direct sound to it.
[/HIDE-POSTS]
[HIDE-POSTS=1000]
So my main tree mics, which I have these
M50s, and then my two wides, these are my main mics. And usually, on
regular film, they'll go to the left, center, right front speakers, but the
thing I do differently is, I take the wides, and I send them to the two outside
speakers in the Atmos array. So these five microphones are actually
covering five different speakers. And it's really cool because you get
this really beautiful width. And then when the film goes to final mix,
to dubbing mix, it doesn't need to cheat and do things with the sound that you
don't want him to do.
[/HIDE-POSTS]
So my main tree mics, which I have these
M50s, and then my two wides, these are my main mics. And usually, on
regular film, they'll go to the left, center, right front speakers, but the
thing I do differently is, I take the wides, and I send them to the two outside
speakers in the Atmos array. So these five microphones are actually
covering five different speakers. And it's really cool because you get
this really beautiful width. And then when the film goes to final mix,
to dubbing mix, it doesn't need to cheat and do things with the sound that you
don't want him to do.
[/HIDE-POSTS]
[HIDE-POSTS=1000]
This isn't a big woodwind
queue. Those woodwind mid-mics, those that which I'm very, very specific
about, I use on the...above the woodwinds, I use ribbon mics. I use the Royer 121
Golds, which are their tube version. It was actually a proprietary mic that I
stole from the factory one day and just never gave them back. I did pay them for
it, though. And I almost entirely, that's almost entirely my close woodwind
sound. I mean, this is not, obviously, this is a big blow so you can't
tell on this, but so...and the reason I bring this up is it's important, one of
the things I feel that is important in the way I set up is that that sort of feature
layer, that feature level, I like to keep everything sort of at the
same height; the woodwind mics, the string mics, the brass mics, the
French horn mics, except the percussion. When I do the percussion live, it's a
little bit different. And this is not the kind of music where you could do the
percussion live, it's just too big a blow and if the percussion played live they
would be leaking all over everything. So for this type of music, it doesn't work.
You know, when I work with Newton Howard, he does everything live or
Danny Elfman does everything live, or obviously, John Williams does
everything live orchestrally. But again, this is not a traditional
orchestral piece of music. But, you know, I keep going back to these
mid-height mics. I know it doesn't sound like I'm using a lot of them here, but
they make such a huge difference in how focused the sound is and without sounding
spotty. Okay, enough said. Having said that, when we get to the
choir, I don't use any spot mics, unless there's words. Unless I need to dig
something out that has, you know, it needs to be understood like back many,
many years ago, 23 years ago when I did "Prince of Egypt", and the choir was singing
in Hebrew. You know, that's an issue. And we spent a lot of
time on that, actually trying to figure out a way to get that choir so that you
understood the words, to the point where he actually recorded a bunch of soloists
with microphones on them that are blended into that choir. But in this case, you
know, if you put a good choir in a good room, with a good reverb, and a little bit
of EQ, you're going to end up with a pretty damn good sound.
So in this case, I'm just using the room,
and then again, we're doing this, but adding a little bit of little top-end
to it, very little. And then in the case of the men, this was actually recorded
at AIR Studios, I think, either there or Abbey Road. It was recorded
in London. And I wanted a little bit more girth in the sound, a little bit more kind
of resonance from the voices, and a lot of times what I'll do when I
need that.
[/HIDE-POSTS]
This isn't a big woodwind
queue. Those woodwind mid-mics, those that which I'm very, very specific
about, I use on the...above the woodwinds, I use ribbon mics. I use the Royer 121
Golds, which are their tube version. It was actually a proprietary mic that I
stole from the factory one day and just never gave them back. I did pay them for
it, though. And I almost entirely, that's almost entirely my close woodwind
sound. I mean, this is not, obviously, this is a big blow so you can't
tell on this, but so...and the reason I bring this up is it's important, one of
the things I feel that is important in the way I set up is that that sort of feature
layer, that feature level, I like to keep everything sort of at the
same height; the woodwind mics, the string mics, the brass mics, the
French horn mics, except the percussion. When I do the percussion live, it's a
little bit different. And this is not the kind of music where you could do the
percussion live, it's just too big a blow and if the percussion played live they
would be leaking all over everything. So for this type of music, it doesn't work.
You know, when I work with Newton Howard, he does everything live or
Danny Elfman does everything live, or obviously, John Williams does
everything live orchestrally. But again, this is not a traditional
orchestral piece of music. But, you know, I keep going back to these
mid-height mics. I know it doesn't sound like I'm using a lot of them here, but
they make such a huge difference in how focused the sound is and without sounding
spotty. Okay, enough said. Having said that, when we get to the
choir, I don't use any spot mics, unless there's words. Unless I need to dig
something out that has, you know, it needs to be understood like back many,
many years ago, 23 years ago when I did "Prince of Egypt", and the choir was singing
in Hebrew. You know, that's an issue. And we spent a lot of
time on that, actually trying to figure out a way to get that choir so that you
understood the words, to the point where he actually recorded a bunch of soloists
with microphones on them that are blended into that choir. But in this case, you
know, if you put a good choir in a good room, with a good reverb, and a little bit
of EQ, you're going to end up with a pretty damn good sound.
So in this case, I'm just using the room,
and then again, we're doing this, but adding a little bit of little top-end
to it, very little. And then in the case of the men, this was actually recorded
at AIR Studios, I think, either there or Abbey Road. It was recorded
in London. And I wanted a little bit more girth in the sound, a little bit more kind
of resonance from the voices, and a lot of times what I'll do when I
need that.
[/HIDE-POSTS]
для желающих посводить одни и те же 4 такта с протечками и без протечек
https://yadi.sk/d/qL8jA-Hy3SgrxG
https://yadi.sk/d/qL8jA-Hy3SgrxG
@Dmitry Stepin, ну да. А все вместе - через 15 мин выложу аж 5 дублей.
Только тогда разницы-то между протечками и непротечками не будет. Тут надо их салингить, и получится возможность управления блидами ,как в SSD
Только тогда разницы-то между протечками и непротечками не будет. Тут надо их салингить, и получится возможность управления блидами ,как в SSD
ну вот, сварганил примеры комбинаций разных
[DOUBLEPOST=1519324238][/DOUBLEPOST]или все вместе на yandex https://yadi.sk/d/yxTqwI033Sh2gU
[DOUBLEPOST=1519324238][/DOUBLEPOST]или все вместе на yandex https://yadi.sk/d/yxTqwI033Sh2gU